30

One of the reasons I've heard for not wanting to delete old posts that are really not up to today's standards is that the reputation will be lost.

An example (and I'm not trying to pick on a moderator there - just clear up a misunderstanding about reputation and deleted posts)

[...] I'm not going to remove someone's reputation or their answer just because there's duplicate information out there -- that's not for me to do (and it's a silly thing to waste moderator time on, since we don't scale). If it really upsets you, get together 20 of your closest Stack Overflowers and have at it. Just don't ask a moderator to do it because it's very low on our list of priorities. We've got too much to worry about without worrying about duplication in the 'verse

The classic example of this would be an old post (from 2012 or so) has a score of +15 (or so), but is a duplicate answer of a post from before. It should be deleted - duplicate answers serve to confuse readers both to our standards now for posting an answer and also for readers trying to find the answer. Alternatively, this is an old commentary post from before comments. Either way - old post, high score, should be deleted by today's standards.

So, what happens when a mod deletes a +15 score post?

  • the post is deleted.

That's it. No reputation loss. Nothing else untold. It's just gone.

Yes, that is correct, there is no reputation lost for that post being deleted. This is described in Reputation and Historical Archives

First, if you’ve contributed something worthwhile to the site, you should keep the reputation for that even if it eventually gets deleted. “Worthwhile” here is defined as,

  • A score of 3 or greater
  • Visible on the site for at least 60 days

But, as we know, 20k users can't delete answers that have a positive score. They have to push it negative.


Now, let's say that that flag is declined for some reason or another. As I mentioned earlier this is sometimes from a misplaced "I don't want to remove reputation gained for old posts", and instead a concerted effort to down vote the post to negative is called out (example - the post has gone from to +11/-4 to +11/-11 in two days) and 20k users can then act on deleting it.

When the post is now deleted, the reputation is lost. By not deleting the post when it was at +7, the user will lose 102 reputation when it is deleted.

So, by not deleting the historical poor answer (that should be deleted - though this is open to interpretation) and instead forcing the community to do this make user lose all the reputation gained on the post.

This point is one that there is much gnashing of teeth and ado on meta.

And so, mods, if the post should be deleted or would likely be deleted when the concentrated focus of users gaze upon it - and you find out about this via a flag... if you want to preserve the reputation of the user, please consider deleting the post sooner rather than later.

Deleting sooner will likely create a better experience for authors, moderators and flaggers:

  • You handled the flag and don't get another "why was my NAA declined?" on meta.
  • You don't get a "why did everyone down vote me? I lost 100 reputation" post on meta.

And if you got here, I'm sorry for having you read another "mods should delete things" post that you may or may not agree with. I just felt that it is important for people to realize that not deleting old posts that should be and are up voted means that more reputation will be lost when they are deleted.

If you want to preserve the user's reputation, delete post before its score gets < 3.

19
  • 13
    Strongly disagree with this. You provide no reasoning aside from personal opinion of why the duplicate should be removed, if it even is a duplicate. There is a policy of "We do not delete good content" in place, and also there is a certain degree of duplication which is acceptable in order for users to better navigate content.
    – Travis J
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 21:44
  • 12
    What's the question or discussion here? I've read this a few times and I'm missing it.
    – Taryn Mod
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 21:44
  • 4
    @bluefeet its an informative post that is too long to fit into a comment and too contrived to put into a self answered Q&A, but still needs one of those mandatory tags. The problem is that forcing us (the community) to down vote and delete posts that should be deleted because of duplicate content, or its a comment rather than an answer will ultimately create more work for you and a much worse experience for at least three users. Preserving duplicate or non-answers because of reputation is the very wrong answer because the way to preserve that rep is for you to delete it before we do.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 21:48
  • 1
    @MichaelT - You are taking one narrow case and making a false conclusion in my opinion.
    – Travis J
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 21:50
  • 10
    @MichaelT So basically you want us to delete stuff when you've flagged it as duplicate content regardless of whether or not other users have found it helpful?
    – Taryn Mod
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 21:50
  • 7
    @bluefeet I am saying that telling us to gather a dozen down votes on a post and have the 20ks delete it will increase your work load because it will create a bad audit and cause some user to lose over 100 reputation. If the post meets some criteria for deletion (whatever that is), using the excuse of "I'm not going to remove someone's reputation" is misunderstanding how reputation is lost when a post is deleted.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 21:53
  • 1
    @bluefeet aside, I've mentioned this before but upvotes are a very poor indication of 'helpful'. The culture of voting on Stack Overflow really doesn't seem to support that stance. It would be interesting to get Shog to pull data about how likely users are to up vote more than one post on questions that have some number of answers.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 22:14
  • 4
    @MichaelT Upvotes mean that someone found the content helpful and we are very careful in deleting what potentially is valuable. Brad covers that in his answer, we tend to be a bit cautious when deleting content. But I can assure you that moderators do delete a far share of content based on a flag or not.
    – Taryn Mod
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 22:33
  • 4
    @bluefeet upvotes don't always mean that, Atwood covered this very thoroughly in The Trouble With Popularity
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 6:57
  • 5
    If I'm getting on average 20 rep/day from an answer from 2009, and that gets deleted today, that means a year from now I'm missing ... uh, 365 * 20 rep I'd have had if the answer remained. So, while you may retain rep gathered prior to that point, you still lose something.
    – user1228
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 18:03
  • 5
    @TravisJ I don't care about the link only nature of the answers. I do care that there were five answers that were essentially identical. This added lots of noise to the answers in the question and makes it harder for users who find the site to wade through it. It makes Stack Overflow into more like the forums of old. This happens consistently even today - people posting an answer that says the same thing as a post from months or years before. If it gets an upvote, it becomes very difficult for the community to curate the quality and try to keep a good signal to noise ratio.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 18:10
  • 1
    @MichaelT - You don't have a pattern you have one example. All of those link only answers can be deleted. What I care about is people misconstruing your dictation here into deleting valuable content.
    – Travis J
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 18:23
  • 2
    @TravisJ This post is about a decline of duplicate answers. Another post about duplicates being declined. I've got a declined flag on this post that has the same content as this one and this. How should can we curate these duplicate posts so that I don't have to wade through three visible posts that are the same link to find the answer?
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 18:31
  • 2
    @TravisJ this is true only for unregistered, "outside" visitors. As for active site users - voters, flaggers, answerers - we just don't know; requests for statistics on their preferred sort order remain unanswered (1, 2)
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 17, 2015 at 0:07
  • 3
    @TravisJ having the exact same thing said over 3 times is neither useful, nor advisable, nor allowed. Michael might have a little more trouble with this, but I have already flagged more than tens of answers I can recall, to the same question (obviously distributed), which were deleted, because they offered nothing new to the existing answers.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 18, 2015 at 1:50

4 Answers 4

23

No, we don't avoid deleting things just to prevent someone from losing reputation. I don't care about preserving someone's reputation. I delete plenty of actual non-answers that have been voted up (just deleted an old question that was asked in an answer that had three upvotes on it, in fact).

What I do care about is preserving something that others have found to be valuable. Votes tend to indicate this, although not always.

The important part of George's comment wasn't about reputation, it was about what flags are a good use of our time. If a short answer that happens to contain a link has been significantly upvoted, it's been shown to have value to others. I personally hate to delete things that others have found of value, since I feel that isn't making the Internet a better place.

There's plenty of steaming trash coming in every day. What George was saying is that maybe we shouldn't be bickering over old, highly voted content and should instead focus on downvoted garbage coming in right now.

10
  • 6
    If it is low on the list of priorities, then that should be the answer. The reputation is a red herring - and what's more, it is wrong. Claiming not deleting because "not taking away reputation" will actually result in the loss of the reputation later. It will cause a bad audit to be generated. While deleting old crap may not be on the list of priorities, not deleting it and forcing the community to delete upvoted old crap will cause some other problems that ignore priorities (bad audits, upset users).
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 22:05
  • 1
    @MichaelT audit will unlikely be generated for '2012 post: "ALL audit posts are limited to things posted in the past 30 days..."
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 22:15
  • @gnat I stand corrected. Could have some interesting bits with controversial current posts but that's not at issue here. I've struck out the text from the question.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 22:20
  • 2
    @MichaelT - It sounds to me like you're reading too much into an offhand comment George made months ago. Reputation has never really been an issue when it comes to deletion of things. It's actually funny to have this discussion now after the fuss that people put up years ago when moderators were used as a proxy to delete highly voted content. The community revolted against moderators because of all the reputation people lost, thus the changes you link to above. Now we're hearing about it from the other direction.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 22:26
  • 2
    @BradLarson If I am reading too much into it, I apologize. That said, I really do believe there is a misunderstanding about reputation loss for deleted posts that has lead to a hesitancy to delete old content that isn't up to today's standards and a suggestion to have the mob down vote and delete it (with the expectation that it probably won't happen) - that part I'm not sure I'm misreading. I want to make sure the reasons to delete or not delete a post are firmly grounded on Stack Exchange policy and not misunderstandings of mechanics.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 22:30
  • 2
    @MichaelT - I can't speak for everyone, but I'm well aware of the reputation retention rules you link to above. Again, I was there for the arguments that led to them. Same with George, despite his comment. Those rules play no part in my decision-making process on whether or not to delete something, because I don't care about preserving reputation. Votes on a post provide guidance that people found something of value, but if something clearly doesn't belong here (spam, gibberish, questions in answers, "me too" posts), that's not going to prevent a post from being deleted.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 22:48
  • @MichaelT - Where is this mob originating from? Perhaps that is more concerning than someone missing out on a little bit of reputation from having a link only answer removed.
    – Travis J
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 22:52
  • 2
    @TravisJ: The problem is more getting enough mobs of sufficient size. As long as that stays the only way to clean things. Naturally it should be properly directed too. Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 22:59
  • 2
    @Deduplicator - "It should take a long time" as in the overall community forms consensus in the wild, not as in a chat channel got together and started nuking answers because of their own personal opinions. There is a difference between the community, and a mob.
    – Travis J
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 23:01
  • If an answer is truly useful but otherwise doesn't qualify as an acceptable answer, you can just convert it to a comment, instead. That's what comments are for after all.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 10 at 14:50
13

I suspect the comment you're referring to there was George throwing out an intentionally ridiculous scenario to illustrate the ridiculousness of the problem itself.

To recap that discussion: a short (NOT link-only) answer has proved useful, and also motivated the creation of a longer answer which may eliminate the need for the original. George is saying this isn't a decision for moderators to make, although it is technically feasible for the community to do so if sufficiently motivated - then noting the sort of effort that would be required to eliminate this minor irritant.

Considered in this light, the idea is patently ridiculous: the answer is useful, outside of extreme situations it is not in the way, it is clearly not worth 20 people's time to remove it.

Required reading:

19
  • 5
    Consistency (yes, hobgoblin) would be useful at times. There are comments about preserving reputation, suggestions to get people to act via the meta effect, the suggestion to lock posts because of the meta effect, the constant debate about NAA flags being declined, the [help/deleted-answers] saying one thing and meta saying another, and likely more than a few users turned off when they log on one day to find -100 (post removed) in their reputation feed. It's certainly not an easy problem, but the current inconstancy of message doesn't appear to be making anyone at all happy. ...
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 23:39
  • 4
    ... I was hoping to bring up this and make sure that one part of this inconsistency of message to the users that is clearly and demonstrably incorrect that has been communicated (or at least can easily be interested as such) to us in the past is not repeated again as part of the message about how and why things work the way they do.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 23:41
  • 1
    Shog, speaking of toublesome high score answers, do SO mods hesitate to add "insufficient explanation" notice when these are flagged? I ask because at other sites where I'm active (especially TWP), these notices seem to be cast much easier... and frankly, seem to make overall experience much smoother. With mod notice, salvageable answers seem to get better chance for edits (not only authors, sympathising passers by tend to edit in response to notice) and if really broken stuff gets deleted later, things look less arbitrary
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 8:30
  • 1
    @gnat: Speaking for myself, I'm hesitant to add a post notice when the odds of my ever seeing that post again are tiny. The current backlog of "Other" flags is around two months, so flagging after fixing the post isn't a great workflow either.
    – Michael Myers Mod
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 14:36
  • 1
    @MichaelMyers given the size of Stack Overflow, that can be said of any post here. What mechanisms are there to indicate (beyond a down vote or comment) that a given answer doesn't meet the expected quality standards to other users (not the author)? We know there are problems with comments being ephemeral and the important ones at the end not showing up because of the popular ones at the top.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 15:26
  • That notice was pretty much created for the benefit of Programmers, @gnat. It's used on a few other sites, but there's no workflow geared to Stack Overflow's scale and really not much of a need for it.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 15:28
  • 1
    Moderators are instructed (by their charter, and frequently by members of the community) to act as stewards, @MichaelT. They're expected to take context into account when evaluating posts, making decisions that preserve useful content and squelch noise. Voting isn't a perfect signal, but in the absence of special knowledge it is often the strongest indicator for or against the usefulness of a given post. As such, there's a perpetual conflict between this fundamental philosophy of moderation and other rules or guidelines. I don't think this is something we'd want to avoid.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 15:32
  • 3
    @Shog9 Are duplicate answers within a single post indicative of noise? Given that this, this, and then this, this, and this are all the same, is that noise that needs to be squelched? When should this squelching have been done? Given that a mod undeleted the post, should it have even required flags? Does it matter if they are up voted posts?
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 15:37
  • 1
    @Shog9 as an aside, the outstanding flag (custom) on the duplicate answer has been declined with "a moderator reviewed your flag, but found no evidence to support it" - what is the proper way to curate the duplicate answers? Down vote, walk away and hope that a 20k user comes by some day? Flag for a moderator to take a look at it (and get an unhelpful decline message?)? If duplicate answers within a post are acceptable, should the help center be updated to reflect this so that users have a better expectation of what the quality standards of Stack Overflow are?
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 19:16
  • @MichaelT I declined it because although the answers link to the same library; they provide different levels of information outside of that link; the flag was incorrect, they are not exact duplicates.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 19:55
  • 1
    @GeorgeStocker so, one should put all of the content outside the links ("If you want to use Win32 ports rather than installing Cygwin, I recommend {link}", "dos has no tail command" into the existing answer "I'd suggest installing something like {link}. It has most favorites, including tail" - to say nothing of the other two posts that had the same link and are deleted)? You are stating that those parts outside of the links are valuable and useful and are worth the noise of having three answers pointing to the same link?
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 20:00
  • 2
    @MichaelT I'm stating that you're spending too much time worrying about something from years ago. In fact, all of the time spent worrying about these three particular answers could be better spent moderating things from today and this week. This doesn't just apply to you, it applies to everyone who spent any time on this.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 20:04
  • 2
    @GeorgeStocker The post was acted on a week ago. I am concerned about the quality of posts on Stack Overflow - no matter when they are posted. I am confused about the inconstancy between the handling of flags, the desire for quality, and the descriptions from SE about when an answer may be deleted in the help center. I am under the impression that two link only answers with minor commentary should be a cut and dry situation - that it isn't makes me wonder what the threshold for flagging is (I'm really reading this as 'never flag').
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 20:15
  • @MichaelT "Link Only" means "if you take away the link, there's absolutely no information" (answer consists solely of link). It doesn't mean anything else, protestations to the contrary notwithstanding. There are practical realities to moderation. As a 2K user, you can only do so much; as a moderator, I can do anything, but I have a limited amount of time. Finally, we're not robots; we look at each post in context and act accordingly. You will never have 100% consistency (or what you think is consistent) because post has a different set of circumstances surrounding it. Embrace this idea.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 20:18
  • 1
    At least one SO moderator has been fond of doing that in the past, @gnat - see if you find any of these notices particularly useful.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 23:21
4

First off, Shog9 is right.

I suspect the comment you're referring to there was George throwing out an intentionally ridiculous scenario to illustrate the ridiculousness of the problem itself.

Also, Brad is right.

But, since this post is about me, I may as well chime in with an answer.

You honed in on one part of what I said; and took it to mean something other than how I meant it.

That's OK, it just reinforces my opinion that comments are an ultimately poor means of conveying lasting information, and have a half-life that measures in months in most cases.

So, what did I mean? Let's take a look at the preceding comment to find out:

Shouldn't we be trying to clean up the old material that people keep citing as examples? If one answer is entirely a dup of another (as these are), shouldn't one be deleted? Now that there is a better answer there that completely supersedes them (name and example), shouldn't both be deleted? – MichaelT Jan 22 at 14:02

and its responses:

@MichaelT In a perfect Stack Overflow world, there'd be no duplication; but we've got a long way to go for that to be the case. In this case; the community decided these answers should stay, and our current moderator stance concurs with that assessment. The power to delete is the power to tell someone we don't want their content. That's a powerful statement for a moderator to make; that's why we take great care in exercising that power. – George Stocker♦ Jan 22 at 14:06 (emphasis added)

[...] Or should one try to muster sufficient down votes so 20k users can delete vote it (or have it auto flag to the vlq queue?)? The key is consistently. – MichaelT Jan 22 at 14:15 (Author note: partially edited out remainder for brevity; without removing point I responded to)

@MichaelT Yes; you should. I'm not going to remove someone's reputation or their answer just because there's duplicate information out there -- that's not for me to do (and it's a silly thing to waste moderator time on, since we don't scale). If it really upsets you, get together 20 of your closest Stack Overflowers and have at it. Just don't ask a moderator to do it because it's very low on our list of priorities. We've got too much to worry about without worrying about duplication in the 'verse. – George Stocker♦ Jan 22 at 14:36

Here are my main points:

  1. Moderator time is limited. We are 15 human beings, with either school or full time jobs and families. If we have an average of 30 minutes a day to moderate; that time is broken out between responding to complaints on Meta, organically moderating questions, responding to flags, investigating voting rings, or conferring with other moderators. Some moderators handle an extreme amount of flags but don't respond on Meta as much, other moderators (like myself), spend more time on Meta, but less time on flags (I have spurts where I'll clean out the moderator queue, but I'm not in the moderator queue every day).

Because moderator time is limited; we tend to focus on the highest value items. You've heard it said that we are 'Human exception handlers'; that's as much to do with time as it is The Theory of Moderation. De-duplication based on old, upvoted, maybe-not-so-greatly-written answers is not even on that list.

  1. Moderator actions are binding, and repeated moderator actions can have an effect on how people interact with the site.

That's part of why A Theory of Moderation says we should do as little as possible: We have a higher impact than any 20 10K users. Perhaps the diamond is a giant red cape? Maybe it's the binding nature of our votes? Maybe it's that we're always publicly visible and you can't swing a dead cat without finding a meta post complaining about a moderator? Who knows. What I do know that every action we take puts a giant target on our back. We're grownups, we can handle it; but I'd be lying if I said it doesn't affect how we do our jobs. That's problem #1; Problem #2 with that is that we do not want to discourage or penalize people for behavior that (when they did that behavior) was right and justified. We try not to moderate Ex Poste Facto when there are other ways to handle it.

If we have a choice between taking a binding action of summarily deleting upvoted old answers to eliminate duplication and keeping that content around because people have found it useful, we're going to keep it around. It's both the pragmatic path and in keeping with A Theory of Moderation.

  1. I'm not the arbiter of whether your reputation was received fairly for writing 'Good' answers or 'bad' answers. That's an unfair position to put a moderator in.

From a reputation envy point of view, it rankles me that high reputation users answer duplicates just so they can get the reputuation. From the point of view that wants people to get their questions answered, I don't care if someone answers a duplicate. So long as we can track duplicates to their originals and clean it up at some point, it doesn't bother me one iota.

  1. Moderators are not super-close voters; and we're not a substitute for you to downvote answers. If you try to use us as such, you're going to be disappointed.

  2. We've been down the path of the super moderator. I remember those days; we spent my first year trying to get out of those situations. The Community Team recognized this and has implemented numerous solutions to make moderators true exception handlers. We're not there yet, but we're a lot closer than we were when I started.

In closing, be the change you wish to see in the world; don't rely on a moderator to take action that you can marshal community involvement in. Using a moderator to do the dirty work is not sustainable from a community moderation perspective. It may go fast, but it's not a recipe for community consensus.

My advice to you now is the same as it was when I wrote that comment: Rally community support for your case and take it from there. Or maybe, just focus on the important stuff?

If it's hard to get community consensus around an action you want to take, perhaps it's not an action the community wants to take?

13
  • 2
    (1) Moderator time is indeed limited. Moderator priorities don't always match community priorities. That there is a conflict here is an issue. (2) Popular content is not always useful. Up votes reflect popularity. (3) My issue isn't about duplicate questions being answered but duplicate answers in a post. This from '09 is a duplicate of this from '08 in the same question. When the post was mod undeleted time has been spent at that point to look at the post.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 12:58
  • 4
    Just as much as "we do not delete good content" one might also want to consider "we do not undelete poor content" where poor content is described in the help center. If that does not reflect policy, it needs to be changed. Duplicate answers in a post that do no more than repeat what was said before should be deleted. Answers that do not fundamentally answer the question should be deleted. Undeleting content is just as much a technical judgment on the material as deleting it. ...
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 13:02
  • 3
    When seeing a post get 8 down votes so that the community can delete vote a post that was previously a NAA flag, one might wish to consider stepping in and deleting it so that excessive community moderation time isn't spent on otherwise trivial issues. I really don't care about keeping or losing the reputation on those posts - I do care about the user experience of the person who has that post and the constant cry of 'stack overflow is negative as of late'.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 13:06
  • 3
    @MichaelT without getting into a protracted discussion, I disagree that deleting old upvoted content is a community wide priority. It seems to be the same four or five people; and that's not indicative of the community; that's indicative of those four or five people. (2) I'm not the arbiter of determining popularity vs. usefulness and meting out deletions based on my interpretation of that. That sounds like a terrible idea. (3) As moderators, we do undelete posts when we believe they've been deleted in error. I reject your 'poor content' premise for that post.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 13:39
  • 2
    "presently off topic" != poor content. The two are orthogonal.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 13:40
  • 5
    I have said nothing about poor quality questions, and instead am referring to duplicate answers within one question. Having four link only answers recommending the same tool is unnecessary. I'm not overfly fond the link only format but that is a different issue. Three of those answers (posted a year or more after the original) should be deleted because they are duplicate answers. Having duplicate answers in one question serves as a bad example to users and means it takes more time for people looking for the answer to wade through the same content again and again.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 13:44
  • 2
    The issue of wading through the same content again and again is part of the founding principles of Stack Overflow. This is what one experiences when reading the old forums for technical help. A question as the first post, and then two or three pages of the same thing until someone says something on page 4 of 7 that is the actual answer. Duplicate answers within the same question is very costly to the reader and serves to hide the quality content that is there.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 13:46
  • 1
    @MichaelT We handle questions and answers the same; I'm not making a distinction because there isn't one to make. Duplicate questions are closed; if they are good signposts, they stay around. Duplicate answers (that are plagiarism) are deleted; duplicate answers that say the same thing in different ways can be handled by the community. It's not critical that a moderator steps in. What this question needs is for the accepted answer to be edited with all the other content, and then once you do that you can flag that other content for deletion and a 'wiki' answer lock. That's a good compromise.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 14:08
  • 3
    Duplicate questions act as sign posts. They can redirect users to the correct content. Duplicate answers on the other hand are confusing to readers and demonstrate an opportunity cost and are indicative of forums. Unfortunately, I don't have 2000 rep on SO yet and my previous attempts at combining answers have met with suggested edit rejections. As many of these questions closed (they should be) I can't create a community wiki answer of my own in there. Me, doing these actions one at a time presents more time and effort on your part than you doing them (combining and the flag handeling).
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 14:13
  • 1
    "Me, doing these actions one at a time presents more time and effort on your part than you doing them (combining and the flag handeling)." Not for me. I'm Ok with doing nothing in this case. There are community channels for this; if the community doesn't agree with your suggested edits, maybe that should be its own meta question? There's still nothing here that suggests you want to use a moderator for anything more than a proxy of that which you do not yet have the reputation to do yourself and have not convinced others to do it for you.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 14:16
  • 2
    I've put a deleted answer in this question with the contents. Please consider moving the content of this answer into the accepted answer, deleting all the link only answers and community wikifying the accepted answer. Even if I had 20k rep (rather than 2k), I wouldn't be able to work at moderating the question as part of the community because all of the answers are up voted and 20k users cannot deleted upvoted answers. Thus it doesn't matter if I have 101 or 100,001 rep on that - a moderator is necessary to delete popular content that prevents content from being shown.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 14:28
  • @MichaelT You wouldn't be able to delete the answers; but you would be able to move all the content into the highest voted answer and then flag the question for a 'wiki-answer' and deletion of the other posts as a result of that wiki answer. That's important.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 14:34
  • 5
    I personally don't feel that this question is a good one for wiki lock. The community has shown no interest over time at updating it or maintaining it. I am disappointed that someone found all the answers to use 'useful', or just popular. I meant that as a 20k user I wouldn't be able to do any moderation at removing duplicate answers because they are all positively scored. I believe that curating of the content is the appropriate path rather than wiki lock and thus why I haven't suggested it.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 14:39
0

In my opinion the premise posed is a terrible conclusion to draw from a post which received downvotes after it was discussed on meta.

There is no need to protect reputation from content which needs to be deleted. There is no reason to delete good content.

The answer linked in your post itself is not very constructive, as it is a link only post. However, and I cannot express this strongly enough, taking implications from this one very narrow place and applying it broadly to content which is constructive is terribly misplaced.

The answer shown in your post does not deserve to be grouped into the "duplicate information" because it is link only, and does not contain information to begin with. It was also only at ~11 so that isn't a bunch of reputation to with regards to removal.

While this one issue may require deletion, the overall set does not immediately require it as a result of this one narrow case and should be dealt with on a case by case basis or discussed on meta before unilaterally deleted.

Say it with us

We do not delete good content. We do not delete good content. -George Stocker♦

22
  • 3
    This is not about that post, but rather what appears to be a systemic misunderstanding of what happens when a post is deleted by moderators (and not just on SO). This misunderstanding then results in actions that ultimately lead to significant reputation loss for old timers (having a -100 score show up on a day isn't something people like) and dissatisfaction with audits (that then require a moderator to clear that flag). It isn't about good content or bad content - it is about the problems that occur when you need a mob to delete a post rather than a moderator's scalpel to clean a post.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 22:09
  • 5
    Sure we don't delete good content. Which does not mean we don't delete posts which were once good content, but are no more. Or which are only popular. Or would be good content, if it wasn't for the other answers directly next to it, which say the same much better and in more detail. Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 22:10
  • 1
    That was about the "we don't delete good content" mantra. And you've never seen a mod properly clean up any question, probably including merging multiple ones? Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 22:13
  • 3
    @TravisJ An example of mods working on deleting duplicate answers can likely be found in Looking for a windows equivalent of the unix tail command which had some significant curating of duplicate material after it was undeleted. Granted, there is probably still some more that could be done.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 22:24
  • 2
    @MichaelT I don't see why you think a moderator needs to be involved in deleting duplicate answers. Moderators are supposed to be the "exception handlers" when the community cannot handle it themselves. That doesn't appear to be something a moderator needs to be involved in.
    – Taryn Mod
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 22:42
  • 3
    @bluefeet: Well, if the answer has any upvotes, like for not being wrong and maybe having been early, and thus has a (maybe sizable) score, the software says it is an exception which requires moderator power... Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 22:54
  • 1
    @Deduplicator Actually no that's incorrect. The community can DV and delete it without a moderator and that is what you're supposed to do. We are "exception handlers" when the community can't do it. Just because a post has multiple upvotes, the community can still handle it, it just might take a bit of time.
    – Taryn Mod
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 22:55
  • 3
    @bluefeet I believe that whoever undeletes material should be responsible for bringing the entire question and its answers up to the current standards. It was apparently exceptional enough for the question to be undeleted - it is equally exceptional enough for the duplicate answers on the question to be curated. There are still some duplicate answers on there - should I try getting a few more people to down vote them, so that the entire post is acceptable, or is it more appropriate for a moderator to continue the curation of the material that was begun with its undeletion?
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 23:22
  • 1
    @MichaelT that's where I disagree with you. The content on the site can be curated by its users. This shouldn't fall squarely on the shoulders of the moderators. Instead of arguing about it, why not take the time to fix it? There are 15 mods and thousands of users, seems a bit disproportionate to place that on us to fix when the community can do something about it.
    – Taryn Mod
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 23:29
  • 5
    @bluefeet it should be, it sometimes takes effort to overcome historical inertia. When a mod (or users) acts to undelete a post, that is silent and there are no eyeballs on it on the front page. The individual(s) undeleting posts should take additional steps to curate the content in the posts. If this is the community, that means votes and flags where appropriate. When that is a mod, it should be the mod's responsibility too. All of this is tangent to what appears now to be some very unfortunately worded excuse as to why something shouldn't be deleted and a call for a mob to instead act.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 15, 2015 at 23:32
  • 1
    @gnat - That post addresses displaying and linking to deleted content and lost reputation. It concerns protecting users from having a glaring red drop of reputation from others who would see deleted content in general. Perhaps you should post an answer instead of making snarky comments (I know how to edit and do not need a link implying its necessity, if you had provided something worthwhile I would consider making a change).
    – Travis J
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 17:42
  • 2
    @MichaelT - Your idea of a mob taking action is not community action. It is collusion from chat. Specifically from chat on an entirely different exchange than Stack Overflow. Do not collude to take action. Do not form lynch mobs.
    – Travis J
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 17:44
  • 4
    @TravisJ no, its not. I really don't like asking to people needing to do that to curate the content. The tools that we, as part of the community have, are rather blunt. This is unfortunate. The other option is to ask for a moderator to take action - they've got sharper tools and can act to make things into comments, delete them more quickly, post mod notices asking for longer answers and the like. If something needs to be curated and the blunt tool is clumsy, but the sharp tools have been declined in flags - the blunt tools are the only ones available.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 18:06
  • 3
    As has been seen on other stack exchanges recently, a mod election is not about community mandates to do things. However, mods are a necessary role to take care of situations where the community cannot moderate the content. Mods have the only way to delete up voted content (without deleting the question wholesale). Thus, if there is content that is noisy that should be removed to make the useful content more visible, is that not something a mod should do - rather than trying to get people to dv it?
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 16, 2015 at 18:36
  • 2
    "different exchange" is unlikely, I think both Shog and @MichaelT refer to SO. Of all the sites I am active at, only SO meta has complaints about multiple duplicate answers - at other sites these are deleted without much drama (at Workplace, they even have a meta FAQ "don't repeat others" making deletions as smooth as possible)
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 18, 2015 at 6:19

You must log in to answer this question.