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I could be wrong with my thinking and please let me know if I am, however I was just reading through the Edit Questions And Answers page and noticed this sentence:

Try to make the post substantively better when you edit, not just change a single character. Tiny, trivial edits are discouraged.

Shouldn't that say "substantially" instead?

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  • Absolutely, totally and in all other ways inconceivable!
    – Sobrique
    Commented Oct 24, 2015 at 13:16
  • 1
    @Sobrique You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
    – j08691
    Commented Oct 25, 2015 at 0:38
  • 3
    Why do you think it should say substantially instead of substantively?
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 25, 2015 at 20:53
  • 2
    Can you explain how this would make the help pages substantially better? :) Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 5:37

2 Answers 2

25

It's the right word, but perhaps the wrong wording. Note that this advice appears later on in the text:

Please be mindful of this and make your edits count, so that the new attention is brought to something substantial.

The goal of the first guideline is to encourage comprehensive edits and discourage trivial nonsense. The goal of the second is to reinforce this. Using two variations on the same root word is an unfortunate way of accomplishing this - it's better to restate the same idea using different language so as to resolve any ambiguity that might be present in a single wording.

So I changed the first one to this:

Tiny, trivial edits are discouraged - try to make the post significantly better when you edit, correcting all problems that you observe.

Thoughts?

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  • 2
    I like this much more as it is immediately apparent what is wanted, and doesn't lead my thinking astray on the proper usage of a word. Though it seems the previous usage was indeed correct, I think that this new line is much more clear.
    – maxshuty
    Commented Oct 23, 2015 at 20:05
  • should put that on top of the actual editing UI also
    – charlietfl
    Commented Oct 24, 2015 at 19:31
  • For something to be substantively better, its substance or essential meaning must be better. It doesn't need to be substantially or significantly better, which would imply a more quantitative than qualitative requirement. Actually, this seems like a good question to pose to the English Language Learners stack exchange!
    – Thriggle
    Commented Oct 25, 2015 at 20:24
  • As a well-read native English speaker, I have no problems with the difference between substantive and substantial, but many others will have the querent's confusion. Whatever we go with in the end, let's not rely so much on the reader if we can say it more simply. Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 6:20
16

No, it's the correct word: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/substantive

  1. being a totally independent entity
  2. a. real rather than apparent : firm <need substantive evidence to prove her guilt>; also : permanent, enduring
    b. belonging to the substance of a thing : essential
    c. expressing existence <the substantive verb is the verb to be>
    d. requiring or involving no mordant <a substantive dyeing process>
  3. a. having the nature or function of a noun <a substantive phrase>
    b. relating to or having the character of a noun or pronominal term in logic
  4. considerable in amount or numbers : substantial
  5. creating and defining rights and duties <substantive law> — compare procedural
  6. having substance: involving matters of major or practical importance to all concerned <substantive discussions among world leaders>

"Substantial" would be correct if we wanted edits to introduce a lot of change. We don't. We're concerned with the quality of change. Asking for "substantive" edits implies that we want edits which are on-topic and non-trivial. A non-substantive edit could still be substantial; a large number of trivial changes would be a substantial but not substantive edit.

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  • But it's used in the context to "make better, not just tiny trivial edits..." sub·stan·tial səbˈstan(t)SHəl/ adjective 1. of considerable importance, size, or worth. To me it seems that substantial is the right word here.
    – maxshuty
    Commented Oct 23, 2015 at 19:46
  • In response to your edit having the bold "considerable in amount or numbers: substantial" the sentence includes this line: "not just change a single character", which again seems to be geared more towards substantial.
    – maxshuty
    Commented Oct 23, 2015 at 19:49
  • 3
    @MaxPoshusta It's not about size; the sentence does not indicate that the opposite of "substantive" is "tiny". It is saying that we want edits to be substantive, and that they should not be tiny.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Oct 23, 2015 at 19:54
  • 1
    From the Collins English Dictionary: 2. of, relating to, containing, or being the essential element of a thing
    – theB
    Commented Oct 23, 2015 at 20:00

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